The People of the State of Michigan - - - (Complainants)

VS

William Shimmel - - - (Defendant)

Thomas McCarthy

           Cross Examination

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Page 72

 

 

Q

I understood you to say it was?

A

No, I didn’t say that.

 

 

Q

How far did you say it was or would you say it was now?

A

From where the sound was?

 

 

Q

No, to the store.

A

Well I should think it was about twenty rods.

 

 

Q

Then about how far would it be to where the sound was as near as you can get at it?

A

It must be five or six rods further.

 

 

Q

Further.

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Is there a sidewalk there with loose boards in it?

A

There was at that time.

 

 

Q

Then that would be about twenty-five or twenty-six rods away from you wouldn’t it?

A

I should think so.  I never measured it but I should think it would be.

 

 

Q

Did you ever go up there afterwards and examine that sidewalk to see about the planks being loose?

A

Well I saw them loose that morning, that night when I went up there I walked over it.

 

 

Q

Are the planks laid on stringers?

A

I should think they are 2 by 6’s.

 

 

Q

And the ends of the plank, that is as I understand it, the planks on the sidewalk were laid crossways of the stringers?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And were the stringers sunk in the ground or were they up above the ground?

 

 

 

Page 73

 

 

A

I think they are laid on some inch pieces or something on the ground, they was not bedded into the ground.

 

 

Q

And about how high would be the plank on top of the sidewalk from the ground, the lower part of the plank?

A

I should think it would be six or seven inches.

 

 

Q

You say you noticed this planking there in the morning and at night also?

A

Well the next morning after that happened, I didn’t see it the morning that the - -

 

 

Q

(Interrupting)  Did you notice it that night?

A

Yes, sir, I know the boards were loose on it, I know they had been loose before that.

 

 

Q

But you did not look at it that night?

A

I did not look at it but we walked over it and the boards was loose.

 

 

Q

Had you ever noticed them before?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And did you ever call anybody’s attention to it?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

Now then after you heard this sound as if somebody was walking, which way from Denison store was that?

A

Where the planks were loose - - walking on the walk?

 

 

Q

Yes, sir.

A

I didn’t hear nobody walking until that - -

 

 

Q

(Interrupting)  I know, but that is what I say, were the planks loose all along through the side walk there?

A

No, I guess not.

 

 

Q

Just one place?

 

 

 

Page 74

 

 

A

There was quite a few of the boards loose through the walk.

 

 

Q

Was there any particular place in the walk, that is with reference to where the door stood that they were loose.  For instance the door is here.

A

There was a number of places that the boards were loose, some places there wasn’t a board in the walk at all.

 

 

Q

Of course you would not swear that that was the plank in the side walk that made that noise?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

How long was it after that that you heard the report of the revolver?

A

Why it didn’t seem to be two minutes, not after I heard the holler.

 

 

Q

Well you heard the hollering first?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And some one said “here, here”?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Did you recognize the voice?

A

I did not exactly because my back was turned.

 

 

Q

And then you heard the revolver go off?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Was your back towards the report at first?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And then you turned around?

A

Turned part way around.

 

 

Q

And you saw the flash from the second report did you?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Now were you quite well acquainted with Mr. Golden in his life

 

 

 

Page 75

 

 

Q

time?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Did you ever know of his having a revolver?

A

Yes, sir, I saw him have one in the store a short time before that that he had just got.

 

 

Q

Did you hear him shoot there occasionally himself?

A

He just shot there one evening after he got it, to try it, we got him to do it.

 

 

Q

Did you ever hear any shots there in the village after dark?

A

Not only that one.

 

 

Q

And about how long before this occurrence was it that you heard these shots fired by Mr. Golden himself?

A

Before the murder?

 

 

Q

Yes, before he was killed.

A

Why it must be a couple of weeks I should think.

 

 

Q

Now did you try that gun yourself?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

You examined it, did you?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

You saw it?

A

I saw it.

 

 

Q

Do you know what kind of a gun it was?

A

I could not tell you the name of it.

 

 

Q

What kind of a looking gun was it?

A

It was a revolver.

 

 

Q

I know it was a revolver but how many chambers did it have in it if you know?

 

 

 

Page 76

 

 

A

I don’t know, I couldn’t tell you.

 

 

Q

Are you used to handling fire arms of that kind?

A

No sir, I never have.

 

 

Q

You say that some of you fellows got Golden to try it that night?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Who was it, you?

A

No, I didn’t ask him to.   I think Jake Knipe or George Carr, I don’t know which, there were four or five of us there that night and he tried it.

 

 

Q

Had he said anything to you or in your presence about what he got this revolver for?

A

No, sir, I think he traded a bicycle or something for it.

 

 

Q

Now then when you heard this shot go off there there was nothing particularly unusual about it, was there?

A

Why I don’t know, I kind of felt queer right off as soon as I heard the - -

 

 

Q

(Interrupting)  You felt queer but there was nothing as far as you knew at that time that would indicate that anybody had been shot?

A

Well when I heard the holler I knew that there was something wrong.

 

 

Q

You heard the holler before the revolver went off?

A

Yes, sir, I did.

 

 

Q

But there was nothing to indicate to your mind that anybody had been shot when that revolver was fired twice, was there?

A

Well I kind of felt that there was.

 

 

Q

You felt that there was but there was nothing to indicate it?